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Criticism: The story slayer

    • 367 posts
    March 21, 2015 8:07 AM EDT

    I’ve just spent the last few hours looking at some of the older discussions and I can’t help but notice how many people react openly hostile to criticism. I mean surely we all want to excel in what we do else there’s no point, is there?

    What I sometimes feel that people forget is the pitch at what’s written as criticism. The trouble is you can’t tell what the pitch is so why do people always presume the worst?  

    Imagine if you will the two scenes before you.

    Firstly, the day darkens as black clouds roll across the sky blotting out the sun. A Daedra’s voice booms over head like thunder causing the ground to shake as you look up in fear. “You’re words are pitiful mortal. Be gone from my sight”.

    Most writers would run and hide, never to look at the blog again.

    Now we have a nice sunny day on the plains. The wolves are leaving you alone and there’s no sign on that pesky sabre cat either. While you ponder whether or not to snatch the two butterfly’s as they flutter past you, a rabbit sticks his head up and whispers to you. “You’re words are pitiful mortal. Be gone from my sight”.

    I guess not so many would be running  from that scenario.

    I myself much prefer a hundred comments telling me where I’m going wrong so I may correct my mistakes than one person who say’s my work is fine. That way I can learn and improve.

    If a mistake isn’t corrected then how does that person develop?

    I asked someone once to look at a chapter for me. The end result was less than encouraging. The first page alone had over ten mistakes from small ones to whole paragraphs which needed refining.

    Now the typical reactions would be either the keyboard gets thrown to the wayside and is never picked up again or the writer gets defensive and attacks back as they try to defend their work.

    As for myself I actually printed off their comments and those pages take pride of place in the first section of my story folder for references and as a guide.

    Why can’t people just say to themselves, ‘Oh good someone has seen a mistake and have bothered to tell me’. After all, they have bothered to read your work and have taken the time to point out errors and faults. That don’t mean however you have to agree with everything they pick up on.

    I personally want to become a better writer so I feed of criticism like a starving werewolf amongst a group of unarmed Silverhands.

    Do anyone else see criticism like me or is criticism the bounty hunter of the blog. Something that’s considered evil, albeit a necessary one?

  • Tom
    • 624 posts
    March 21, 2015 1:30 PM EDT

    You don't have to indent every sentence.

    • 1217 posts
    March 21, 2015 1:55 PM EDT

    Everyone can benefit from having a thick skin. I think the problem, at least as I've seen it unfold on occasion here on the Blog, is two fold.

    1) People make needless or tactless comments while providing criticism.

    It's not even necessary to say something nice about the piece, but there's no reason to call it garbage, first and foremost because you don't know the author. We aren't all peers from the same 4th period class. People are writing from different backgrounds that vary as widely as nationality. If providing criticism, then give it and leave it at that.

    2) Critical feedback often comes across as a dog pile.

    People leaving comments, especially with critiques, often say the same things over and over. Whether because they aren't reading previous comments, or because they think that will somehow help the author, who knows, but when an author is getting hammered with the same thing over and over, it starts feeling like people are just in a hurry to tell them what they're doing wrong instead of helping improve the content.

    Of course, these don't apply in every situation and certainly not to every critic, but feedback can only improve with it in mind. But having a thick skin and willingness to change and improve is essential on the part of the author.

    • 88 posts
    March 21, 2015 2:37 PM EDT

    I think the problem on the blog is you have to give nice criticism. You have to be tactful about it, but criticism is negative and it points out flaws in the piece, there's no reason for it to be nice .. just be sure it helps the author (which means not calling it trash, but actually pointing out where the author goes wrong).

    Saying a build doesn't feel unique to you  and that a build is just a basic destruction mage with some backstory (most recent criticism I noted) is perfectly fine, as it actually gives the author direction to improve the build (find a new angle on the same, maybe change the backstory [more, less, better written - all things the author can ask the critic]) ... the critic can go the extra step and give pointers on how to improve these things if he want, but that shouldn't be necessary. If the author felt there was any merit to the critics claim he can ask for help. 

    Criticism should be given where applicable, whether or not you're new to whatever, or you've been in the game forever.

    The first person I'll contact when I made builds is Ben C, as he goes the extra step and is willing to point out every flaw. I also have a tutor for 3ds max, and if he asks whether or not I want him to tear whatever I made a part,I always say yes. It might be hard to hear when you've done your best, especially when you think you've done an amazing job, but it's also the best way to improve.

    • 367 posts
    March 21, 2015 6:00 PM EDT

    It certainly does become an issue with relevance, even the best of intentions can become a rant. Personally I look at each piece of criticism with open eyes. That don't mean to say I agree with the critic however I can see where some people lose heart in what they do. I do agree that sometimes critics don't read the views before hand and that can be a hard thing to deal with.

    I'm not so sure as to whether criticism has to be nice, as long as it's relevant and with good intent. Although it is hard when you feel you've poured your heart into something then it gets decimated. After all it's a big step for some people to open themselves and allow others to see their work.  

    • 122 posts
    March 21, 2015 11:09 PM EDT

    To be honest, I take criticism much more seriously if they are stated in a positive manner. Negativity or even the slightest tone of harshness is a bit hard for me to swallow. Doesn't mean it makes it any less harder for me to improve from them, though.

    EDIT: I take back my statement regarding the Story Corner after reading Nikolaj's comment. Criticism is universal.

    • 1217 posts
    March 21, 2015 11:17 PM EDT

    It's honestly much more applicable to CB. Hardly anyone gives feedback in the Story Corner; it's mostly just likes and "looking forward to more!"

    • 367 posts
    March 22, 2015 4:14 AM EDT

    I'm hoping a few of us will start using the workshop. It does seem a safer environment. Especially  for raw and bleeding pieces. Although it is CB heavy at the moment.

    • 291 posts
    March 23, 2015 7:55 PM EDT

    Why do people assume the worst?  Why are comments often perfect storms of negativity and in-fighting?

    There are several factors at play here...

    1. Most people feel vulnerable when they put a piece out there for critique.  This automatically throws off their self-esteem and confidence.  They will generally be more predisposed to seeing feedback negatively.

    2. People on the internet can be both terribly brutal and terribly incoherent.  Because there is no face or voice to associate with the author, it is far easier to neglect manners more common to voice-to-voice or face-to-face interactions.  People are anonymous, therefore, they will be forgetful of their manners.

    3. As you mentioned, reading text gives no indication whatsoever as to how the commentor meant to say what they wrote.  If you were to hear the comment or see the person's face, then most would not be alarmed as the tone/face would likely be conversational (if not helpful), but because of points 1 and 2, the reaction on both sides is often negative.

    4. Many mistake critique for criticism.  Criticism is utterly useless when giving feedback as it does not offer a potential solution or foster communication so author and commentor can collaboratively solve the problem.  Critique usually follows this formula: 1) point out the problem to the author, 2) explain why you think the problem is there, 3) offer a suggestion to solving the problem, 4) author responds (repeat steps 3 and 4 until a proposed solution has been discovered).
    • 237 posts
    March 25, 2015 4:50 PM EDT

    Nobody's immune to this.  Don't get me started on wizards and academic peer review.  And you think scientists can get butt hurt...

    I think the delivery is very important to helpful criticism.  It's far too easy to put people straight on the defensive if you come across as overbearing right from the start.  While that's all fun and games on 'reality' TV, it's much more important to consider the mental state of the target when dealing with real people and real situations.  'A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down', and all that.

    • 426 posts
    March 26, 2015 8:07 AM EDT

    One of the things that made this site great was its community. I been a member for a long time and whilst I havent been on here much recently I always pop my head in and have a look around.

    When I first started reading and commenting on blog posts, journals and character stories the feedback and comments that other readers left were always positive. Even if someone didn't like a post or found massive errors in a persons writing the feedback was always in a good manner to encourage that person to continue to evolve as a writer.

    To the point were I actually picked up the pen and wrote my own character journal. I had never done any writing previously and it was the support of the communtiy that emboldened me to try.

    At the end of the day if I read a blog and like it I will let you know. If I read a blog and it doesn't grab me or I don't make it to the end I will leave a comment maybe suggesting a different tack or ways the writer might improve. But it will always be in a positive manner.

    We are all fans of the Scrolls games and the fact that some of us take the time to create new stories, characters and content for us to enjoy should be respected.

    So I will leave it at this lets just be nice and enjoy

    • 295 posts
    May 14, 2015 10:18 PM EDT

    I welcome critique, well sort of. LOL, I just get really, really crabby (I keep it all inside, so no worries) when I first get it, cause let's face it, I'm human. We all work super, super hard on what we write, whether it's a CB or a story blog, and it's sometimes haaaaaaaaard when someone doesn't reward you right away with pats on the back and hugs and keeeeses.   Wanting praise is just about as universal as offering critique. 

    Then, after I stew and simmer for a bit, I come to my senses and realize that as others have said, when someone usually offers a critique, it means that time was taken to actually read and think about what I wrote. That is a good thing. I've not run into anyone delivering critiques in a negative way, at least not in my specific case. It's been delivered  in a positive way, regardless of whether or not I choose to follow it. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, cause much of writing is very personal, especially with regard to style and word choice.  I tend, like others here, to be far more receptive to constructive critiques delivered in a civil manner. Though, I still get crabby. I just get crabby. That's just who I am. I'm passionate about what I do. When you're passionate, you tend to get crabby when hours of hard work is not received as you anticipated.

    So though I may get crabby, I value that someone took the time to read it. Far better to read that, than nothing at all and then you don't know how you did. And crap, my stuff is darn long too. You deserve a medal if you can get through one of my blog posts. I am not friendly with the length as Sotek has already pointed out. The poor soul has read every chapter so far and I appreciate it. My sister has read all 800 pages so far.  She is my typo Nazi. I am terrible at finding typos. When she finds them, she points them out and then laughs at me. I get crabby at her too, and then I fix the darn typo, 'cause I do want my story to be better. So many people write pages and pages of story and never put it out there for people to see. Takes a lot of guts to throw it out there. 

    Sorry if I am necro-ing a thread. Sotek sent me here, when I got crabby I think. 

    • 367 posts
    May 14, 2015 10:32 PM EDT

    What!!! So this is my fault???

    As long as you know where I'm coming from.

    • 295 posts
    May 14, 2015 10:39 PM EDT

    yes, it is all your fault that I have resorted to Necromancy. Aelberon shall smite me. I think. 

    • 485 posts
    May 15, 2015 10:03 AM EDT
    You make a very valid point about the value of criticism. I think that value goes with anything you try to create here or anywhere. I'm sure many character builders and writers here would agree that 100 posts of criticism are far more valuable than 100 posts of nothing but compliments.
  • Rob
    • 12 posts
    May 15, 2015 12:16 PM EDT

    I truly appreciate criticism. As long as it's not "Oh my god that sucks so bad." If someone is trying to improve my stuff by adding criticism, then yay.

    • 367 posts
    May 15, 2015 1:48 PM EDT

    That's it in a nutshell realy isn't it. Criticism is useful as long as it's useful. It is what it is. It can be worth a thousand septims or a thousand daggers in the ribs.

    • 203 posts
    May 15, 2015 7:36 PM EDT

    This is indeed an interesting question. I am, just like you, an aspiring (in my case at least) writer. And I Think I share your opinion on this. I have been trying to write my own book for a few years now without ever really advancing very far in the planned story arc (my own perfectionism just tends to get in the way).

    Over the years I have recieved a lot of postive reactions, they keep you afloat, motivate you and boost your ego. They are great, however I have to say that nothing feels nicer than a good dose of constructive criticism. A person that can give you some decent criticism has  not just attentively read your text, he or she has probably read it a few times. You just can't get every error an aspiring writer makes in just one read. This means that the person has taken a lot of their own time to help you out. It's a thing a beginning writer should always think of before scoffing at criticism, or abandoning his or her work.

    I myself specifically ask people for criticism when asked, or asking them to read my text. I can get really annoying about it honestly. But to me the only challenge that separates me from writing a decent (hopefully good) book is my own skill, and the only way to hone your writing skills is by accepting criticism, analyzing it and working on the points that were mentionned.

    I myself started writing in French, it is not my native language but it's as close at it gets, and while the book was still in a very early stage (I had just finished writing my first and second chapter in what I would call Alpha v2 edition) I managed to gather the necessary courage to ask my french litterature teacher about it. The next days were full of anxiety: What if she didn't liked it? What if my French was so abherrent that she wouldn't even mind to read? Or would she even take the time to read that crappy 12 pages long little story that I had come up with? were just a few of the questions that haunted my head during the days that followed. But after nine days (yes, I know the exact amount), she asked me to stay a bit after class. Let's just say that I had never felt as good when I walked out of that room. She gave me a great bunch of criticism, but it was honest, not wrapped up in too much nice words (don't want to traumatize your own student after all) without calling it what I now consider it was, and most of all it was true. I am still tempted to print her following mail out and putting it up somewhere on my wall. No words I wield can decribe how much that talk and that e-mail helped me to become better at what I love to do. This is what Criticism is aimed at.

    I am not talking about the people that just call your work trash, just ignore those people, or ask them to develop, if they don't their criticism is pretty much useless to you. The people that really read your work and point out even the smallest little error should be respected and appreciated. Criticism is in no way a reason to abandon one's work, it is a drive to continue.

    Edit: Woah, that's quite the rant, I'm not sure if it even makes any sense at the end. but yeah, that's what you get when someone (me) is passionate about something he likes. Again sorry for the rambling.

    • 394 posts
    June 14, 2015 1:34 PM EDT

    This is just rubbish! ;)

    Seriously though I totally agree. I welcome mature criticism as like you I'm new at writing. Great post

    • 367 posts
    June 14, 2015 1:57 PM EDT

    Thanks.

    It's nice that a few of us in the story corner can get together and point out errors and mistakes. We all make them and having that extra set of eyes and a different opinion really helps.

    • 367 posts
    June 14, 2015 2:18 PM EDT

    Enjoy your beer and thanks for the input.